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Patriclis
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 Post subject: Astral Burn Moans n' Groans |
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OK so since starting summoner (about 4 days ago) i've noticed just a ton of people (not in this LS but other places, granted i do remember a post about this somewhere else) moaning and groaning about astral burns.
Before I continue though let me point out that i do NOT advocate the people who buy themselves a spot in an astral burn as something other than smn to leech. I do consider that pretty lazy.
Now then various arguments i keep hearing:
1. "But SMNs won't learn their job" OK this is the worst argument i keep hearing and yet it pops up over and over. Here's the thing, smns don't get to learn their job the way they used to level. any time they get an invite(yknow those rare few times), they're forced to be a main heal, which is far from a SMNs purpose/job. There are a few parties here and there when a SMN can DD (normally the lower levels, or if they or a friend make the PT) but mostly, they're stuck as a main heal. Being that an astral burn actually utilizes SMN abilities, it really does teach them more about their job than main healing a party does.
2. "But you need outside help to hold the mobs so it's like cheating" It's cheating in the same way a PL is cheating. PLs come and help a PT so it's not terrible, and in the same way a holder helps an astral burn so the SMNs don't have to solo for 2k/hr or main-heal a shitty party since that's all that will take them. PLing has been going on for years and just because the holder in an astral burn isn't directly healing the SMNs that doesn't mean it's the same thing.
3. "But they PAY the outside help" yeah go to the dunes for a day and count the "will pay for PL" or "Will PL for gil" shouts then get back to me on that one.
4. "They use up a whole zone" Ok you kind of have a point there, they do use a whole zone for like 50 minutes, granted I've been in TP burns where we use all the birds on the top greater colibri camp, and about half on the bottom, for like 3-4 hours, so it's not as bad as you're making it out to be, korroloka just has a bit more traffic, so there's more people to moan and groan when they cant farm their slime oil.
5. "It's a loophole and it's exploiting the use of level sync" No it's not, or it would have been banned by now, and SMNs would do this before level sync it was just rare since you had to find 4-6 level 13-14 SMNs. It just became a lot more common with level sync.
6. "Im gunna level SMN to 75 since they can get the best exp and ill have another 75 job!" You're a tool and no one likes you, GTFO and GDIAF.
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http://patriclis.blogspot.com/
| Shinryuu wrote: | | Someone who thinks logically, rationally, and is familiar with the mechanics of the game will seldomly be wrong about a job regardless of having it leveled. |
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Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:33 pm
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Nkai Moonwatyr
Goddess of small fuzzy critters
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 2174
Location: Asura; San d'Oria
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| Post subject: Re: Astral Burn Moans n' Groans |
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| Patriclis wrote: | | 1. "But SMNs won't learn their job" OK this is the worst argument i keep hearing and yet it pops up over and over. Here's the thing, smns don't get to learn their job the way they used to level. any time they get an invite(yknow those rare few times), they're forced to be a main heal, which is far from a SMNs purpose/job. There are a few parties here and there when a SMN can DD (normally the lower levels, or if they or a friend make the PT) but mostly, they're stuck as a main heal. Being that an astral burn actually utilizes SMN abilities, it really does teach them more about their job than main healing a party does. |
Healing is just as much an aspect of their job as any other. To ignore it completely is, imo, ignorant. Do I think that's all they are good for? no. But using that as a basis for the argument... Mmmmm.. no.
| Patriclis wrote: | | 2. "But you need outside help to hold the mobs so it's like cheating" It's cheating in the same way a PL is cheating. PLs come and help a PT so it's not terrible, and in the same way a holder helps an astral burn so the SMNs don't have to solo for 2k/hr or main-heal a shitty party since that's all that will take them. PLing has been going on for years and just because the holder in an astral burn isn't directly healing the SMNs that doesn't mean it's the same thing. |
PLs are cheating. I hate 'em and i'll take a pt with meh exp over a PLd pt anyday. The PLs usually suck monkey nuts anyway, since they dont know how to do their job any better than the n00b friend they are PLing, because they themselves were PLd most of their vana life. Patience is a virtue and sorely needed by a good portion on the population. Of course there are exceptions to that. Nothing is absolute. Ive been on parties with all ls mates before, on mules leveling jobs or similar jobs, and had someone come just to hang out and raise our sorry corpses. now THAT was fun.
That being said, I don't really equate this to being PL'd. The similarities are minimal.
| Patriclis wrote: | | 3. "But they PAY the outside help" yeah go to the dunes for a day and count the "will pay for PL" or "Will PL for gil" shouts then get back to me on that one. |
Dunt agree with that either... Maybe i'm a snob, but if I have to pay someone to help me with something.... I'd rather not do it. Justifying it because other people pay for services is making it no better than that.
| Patriclis wrote: | | 4. "They use up a whole zone" Ok you kind of have a point there, they do use a whole zone for like 50 minutes, granted I've been in TP burns where we use all the birds on the top greater colibri camp, and about half on the bottom, for like 3-4 hours, so it's not as bad as you're making it out to be, korroloka just has a bit more traffic, so there's more people to moan and groan when they cant farm their slime oil. |
AGreed, Agreed. And agreed. It's no different than a BST monopolizing an entire area with his rejected pets. Or another party wiping out the area. Thy're getting exp just like you would in a standard party. It may sck, but it's allgood.
Now, if they were killing all the mobs just to kill them, that would be another matter entirely. I loathe people that farm in exp areas, especially when they are so much higher lvld. It's unfair to the people thatexpect to be able to exp there. And it's just bad manners.
| Patriclis wrote: | | 5. "It's a loophole and it's exploiting the use of level sync" No it's not, or it would have been banned by now, and SMNs would do this before level sync it was just rare since you had to find 4-6 level 13-14 SMNs. It just became a lot more common with level sync. |
Loophole schmoophole. Agreed and agreed. Its popular enough that if SE wanted to fix it, they would have by now.
| Patriclis wrote: | | 6. "Im gunna level SMN to 75 since they can get the best exp and ill have another 75 job!" You're a tool and no one likes you, GTFO and GDIAF. |
Umm... thats no different that all the schmucks that lvl sam just so they get killer TP burn merit parties.
All that being said, I basiclly agree with you Pat. lol
Power to the SMNs out there for finally fining a way to make their job stand out in the crowd of people that think smn isnt good for anything prior to 75 or promy runs.
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80Blm/76Whm/Cor/75PldDnc/63Rng/52Rdm/Brd/50Smn/Nin/44War/38Sch
24Blu/22Mnk/11Bst/9Thf/10Sam 91+1 Cooking |
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Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:06 am
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Nkai Moonwatyr
Goddess of small fuzzy critters
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
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Location: Asura; San d'Oria
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Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:09 am
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Patriclis
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Joined: 09 Feb 2008
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I actually had the pleasure of doing one (I got to level 11 on SMN and i got an invite within 10 minutes of standing in korroloka to be a sync) it was Pretty badass when we finally got around to it. We had to wait like an hour for another group, then we had to do our pull (pull means that you get a ton of people form the party on another job, they gather all the mobs in the zone and bring it to a holder then they change to smn) which took a good 40 minutes, and then began the carnage, oh my the lovely carnage. I went from level 11-23  . At the same time I've since gotten to 29 through ACTUAL LEVELING and that hasn't been bad either.
As a side note I've actually come to find that SMN seems to be a job that can swap around it's SJ without much consequence, which makes me a sad Dhalmel when i see them all resort to /whm. Now if you're stuck healing, /WHM is the best for sure (well maybe /SCH at 75 for sublimation and whatnot) but /whm is defiantly the most common. Though when you're not healing, because say, i dunno, the PT has a WHM and DNC already, why are people still /whm? I've actually started to develop the enjoyment of SMN/BRD and my parties have all liked the added accuracy from it (yeah they say it in pt chat things like "SMN/BRD that's a new one, but i love the acc bonus" - quote from last night's dancer). and it doesn have to stop at BRD. COR would work well too, giving out hunter's or even corsair's roll.
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http://patriclis.blogspot.com/
| Shinryuu wrote: | | Someone who thinks logically, rationally, and is familiar with the mechanics of the game will seldomly be wrong about a job regardless of having it leveled. |
Last edited by Patriclis on Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:57 am
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Patriclis
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Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 415
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| Post subject: Re: Astral Burn Moans n' Groans |
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| Nkai Moonwatyr wrote: |
Healing is just as much an aspect of their job as any other. To ignore it completely is, imo, ignorant. Do I think that's all they are good for? no. But using that as a basis for the argument... Mmmmm.. no. |
Ehh that depends. You won't really see many SMNs healing in endgame WHMs, SCHs, and RDMs are better than a SMN at that in every way, so unless it's a small event with a couple of buddies and you get aSMN friend to main heal since there's noone else or something similar, you won't see it often. I haven't at least.
| Nkai Moonwatyr wrote: |
Dunt agree with that either... Maybe i'm a snob, but if I have to pay someone to help me with something.... I'd rather not do it. Justifying it because other people pay for services is making it no better than that. |
Oh yeah, I agree, I'll never personally pay for a holder to do an astral burn with me. Though more often then not these days people just use a mule of their own to hold the mobs, i know of like 3 groups of people for sure do this. My point was that, people are whining about this, when it's been going on for a long time already, just in a different way and it's now only an issue to them because they don't get to be a part of the awesomesauce exp in a summonerburn
| Nkai Moonwatyr wrote: |
Umm... thats no different that all the schmucks that lvl sam just so they get killer TP burn merit parties. |
They're tools and no one likes them either.
_________________
http://patriclis.blogspot.com/
| Shinryuu wrote: | | Someone who thinks logically, rationally, and is familiar with the mechanics of the game will seldomly be wrong about a job regardless of having it leveled. |
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Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:06 pm
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Nkai Moonwatyr
Goddess of small fuzzy critters
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 2174
Location: Asura; San d'Oria
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As far as healing goes, it wasnt referrig to it just as endgame, but as a 1-75 process. Just like DNC, at higher levels, of course they are far from the best main heal, but it is one of their many applications. By ignoring it and/or just plain refusing to ever hold that position they are not anly shooting themselves in the foot, but their possible party members as well. Ive run across way too many of them that wont even try to keep a party membr alive, while /whm, while the main heal is at 0 mp. because 'Im a SMN, not a whm!' Especially in dyna, where evry mage is EXPECTED to perform multiple jobs/tasks at once. 'You mean... i have to cure my party??' Ive heard that more times than I care to think about. And its not like they were expected to keep everyon at full hp. More like a 'hey, your war is in the red, toss him a cure III' once in a blue moon.
Live up to the possibilities, buff your party, keep them alive, help them kill faster, better. BE a kick ass summoner! Make yourself into an asset, not a piece of baggage.
Now, to break off from that tangent, how exactly does the holder take te mobs from the personn thattrained them all?
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80Blm/76Whm/Cor/75PldDnc/63Rng/52Rdm/Brd/50Smn/Nin/44War/38Sch
24Blu/22Mnk/11Bst/9Thf/10Sam 91+1 Cooking |
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Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:26 pm
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Patriclis
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Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:56 pm
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Radagast
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I still think it's the lazy way out. No argument can make me believe it's not.
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Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:58 pm
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Trav
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Joined: 28 Dec 2007
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Location: Broken Arrow, Ok
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Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:02 pm
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Radagast
Council Member *is really a Galka*
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TRAV!!!!!! I get my w2 tomorrow and then I can buy my tv so my PS3 won't be lonely
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:01 am
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Nkai Moonwatyr
Goddess of small fuzzy critters
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 2174
Location: Asura; San d'Oria
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Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:21 pm
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Trav
Mogish Post-Master
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Location: Broken Arrow, Ok
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Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:43 pm
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Nkai Moonwatyr
Goddess of small fuzzy critters
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 2174
Location: Asura; San d'Oria
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Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:18 am
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Deidle Moonwatyr
Epic Destroyer of Forums
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Location: Residential Area, San d'Oria
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:06 pm
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Seliphan
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Yay.
Adding onto Pat's #2, 3 and 5:
#2 :: I partially agree with this, but I partially don't. Why is a PL cheating? Not the way the game was supposed to be played, right? Supposed to be a pt killing stuff, not with an extra outside keeping them alive. Well, a meripo is also cheating, then. Parties are supposed to consist of a Tank, Puller, healer, DD x2 and support, or 3rd DD. Yet meripos (TP Burn Variation) utilize two supports, no tanks, no healers and all DDs with a NIN subjob. Likewise, the Pandemonium Warden ZNM has that wonderful AOE that basically rapes the zone. Course, he gives a warning message and waits 40 seconds. So people /logoff to avoid it, n come back. ... Well hell, that's cheating, too. Besides just tossing DDs at it, also not how the game was meant to be played, but now you're taking advantage of game mechanics? Well, it's fine there but not for PLs. Noooo they're just... Doing the same thing. Sure they create noobs who can't play properly, but y'know, we have the same thing with TP burns. I guarentee you most DRGs lately can't use Healing Breath effectively, most SAMs have Polearm levelled but not GKT, and most RDMs have Healing and Enhancing capped but Enfeebling is in the mid 100's.
#3 :: ... So? I can't count the number of times I've been paid to stay in a pt on RDM. At least half the BRDs and most of the CORs have in their /seacom:
20k (please)
COR+BRD or BRD+BRD only
Or something to that effect. People pay for INSIDE help, too. People pay for help in general. >.>;
#5 :: As for levelsync loopholes... Uhum... No? That's what level sync does people. Anyone who leveled a job to 75 before level sync can call it cheating or a loophole, but it's in the game mechanics.
| Nkai Moonwatyr wrote: | As far as healing goes, it wasnt referrig to it just as endgame, but as a 1-75 process. Just like DNC, at higher levels, of course they are far from the best main heal, but it is one of their many applications. By ignoring it and/or just plain refusing to ever hold that position they are not anly shooting themselves in the foot, but their possible party members as well. Ive run across way too many of them that wont even try to keep a party membr alive, while /whm, while the main heal is at 0 mp. because 'Im a SMN, not a whm!' Especially in dyna, where evry mage is EXPECTED to perform multiple jobs/tasks at once. 'You mean... i have to cure my party??' Ive heard that more times than I care to think about. And its not like they were expected to keep everyone at full hp. More like a 'hey, your war is in the red, toss him a cure III' once in a blue moon.
Live up to the possibilities, buff your party, keep them alive, help them kill faster, better. BE a kick ass summoner! Make yourself into an asset, not a piece of baggage.
Now, to break off from that tangent, how exactly does the holder take te mobs from the personn thattrained them all? |
Firstly, you're using two sides of the coin here. Pat's saying SMN cannot and should not main heal, which is entirely true. You're assuming the pt has a main heal.
If all you could use on DNC was Curing Waltz I (with some potency gear) every 6 seconds to keep an entire pt alive you'd die very quickly, especially with Colibri that Pecking Flurry for around 400 a pop. A Cure III(SMNs highest possible) is only enough to cover 1-2 normal hits, much less a TP move. The PLD would have to cover that, and they run out of MP without RDM or BRD refresh. What SMNs SHOULD be doing is tossing out 500 Healing Ruby IIs or 350 HRIs, Spring Water to cover Divine Veil, things like that. Y'know, what SE designed the job to do.
Not to say you don't have a point, anything can /WHM and toss cures. Anything can /SCH and toss cures. And of course if you happen to be either of those it's kinda dumb to let your pt die. SMNs best sub (imo) is SCH, hands down, and there's absolutely no reason whatsoever why they shouldn't toss out an emergency cure. The tricky part is keeping enough MP to do you job.
Now that I think I've covered all points for future questions,
The Pullers only LINK mobs, they don't aggro or attack the mobs. by taking advantage of game mechanics (there it is again...), the holder generates hate on the puller by using a barspell-ra, cures, buffs on himself, whatever, and /heal's. This transfers the hate from the linked mobs onto the holder. The puller then makes sure all the linked mobs are on the holder, then kills the ones they aggrod.
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Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:55 pm
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Ive been gone so long. i gonna be a newb when i actually come back. I'll be back as soon as i get my tax return. had a lot of unexpected bills and bout lost my car... got game waitin for my internet to be set up. should get my w2 any day now so hopefully not long. you guys should text me some time to keep me company
